Hey guys, remember back in, like, the beginning of December when I said I was gonna do a series of posts about how Jack Kirby pretty much single-handedly shaped how we view the DC and Marvel Universes? Remember how I wrote the Marvel portion of that series, and then another Marvel portion of that series, and then said I would write the DC portion soon afterward? Remember how it's now April and I still haven't gotten around to that? Well all that changes now!
So as I've theorized previously, the thematic purpose supervillains serve in comics is to contextualize the superhero -- by mirroring, opposing or inverting what qualities or ideas the hero personifies, villains shed light on what exactly their rival is supposed to represent. So when a single villain becomes a collective threat every individual superhero unites against - one that crosses-over each individual hero's mythology within the larger continuity - this "final boss" contextualizes the mythology of that entire comic book universe. At Marvel, that villain is Lee/Kirby's planet-eater Galactus; his brand of antagonism makes apparent the greater thematic symbolism of the MU. In the DCU, that role is occupied by another Kirby creation, a very different beast.
(Click for a larger image)
DIE! DIE! DIE FOR DARKSEID!
Darkseid (as in "Dark Side", subtle I know) first appeared in Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen #134, cover-dated November 1970 -- four years after Galactus' debut. The evil overlord was one of Kirby's first creations for DC after he left Marvel under less-than-amiable terms, and served as the main antagonist of Kirby's Fourth World saga, a colossal and groundbreaking meta-series which has since become a cornerstones of the collective DC mythos. Time and time again Darkseid has attempted to enslave the universe, only to be defeated by a last-minute Hail Mary from a union of the world's greatest heroes. Of course there have been plenty of other villains that sentence could apply to, but there's always been something special, something greater about the Lord of Apokolips (yes, he rules a planet named Apokolips), largely do to the intrinsic characteristics Kirby imbued him with. Whether menacing the New Gods, the Legion of Super-Heroes or the Justice League, Darkseid has long been the DCU's number one baddie. He is perhaps the greatest archetypal character in all comics (except Superman - why else do they always find themselves fighting one another?), and is certainly the greatest archetypal villain. Don't get me wrong, Doctor Doom is beyond awesome, but even his megalomaniac posturing can't match the grandiosity Darkseid brings to the table. It's a matter of scale. And metonymy.
Darkseid is not just unambiguously, unrelentingly evil on a grand scale, he is evil itself - not in the trite way of the Saturday morning cartoon vice figure but, as described in Final Crisis, the Platonic ideal
of evil given flesh and blood and brought into the physical world. It helps that Darkseid brilliantly avoids the trap vice figures often fall into:
the "evil" they represent being undefined, an empty buzzword blindly
hinting at some general violation of Judeo-Christian
morality or opposition against Platonic good. In Kirby's original Fourth World saga, Darkseid is specifically characterized as the personification of fascism - the absence of choice, the elimination of free will by way of domination, control, enslavement...whatever noun resonates best for you. God I am the worst at this writing thing. Anyway he, as Tim O'Neil states, "isn't a tragically flawed Doctor Doom or an abstract force of nature like Galactus: rather, he is a living embodiment of a very human tendency towards obedience and power." What makes Darkseid so affecting is how this apotheosis is characterized; not only do we see in him a primal, unrelenting authoritarian drive, but also an undeniable clarity of mind in his quest to achieve that total power. Marc Singer writes of the villain:
"...Darkseid is a more mature, more psychologically stable, and therefore far more threatening figure: imagine a Hitler who's both physically intimidating and not the slightest bit insane. Darkseid is what Hitler wanted to be, the visions he sold to himself in his sleep made real... It's an old chestnut that the greatest villains--Magneto, Doom, Luthor... don't think they're villains, even see themselves as the heroes of their own stories. Darkseid is all the more chilling for knowing exactly what he is and what he's doing, and not feeling the slightest remorse."
Following in Kirby's footsteps, Paul Levitz was the first to associate the cosmic dictator with the qualities of darkness, paving the way for his (however blatantly) implied status as the God of Evil to become an official title. Darkness, after all, is the absence of light - humanity's preeminent metaphor for enlightenment and all things spiritual, sacred and divine. Grant Morrison, one of the few true Kirby disciples, placed this trait within the cosmic-oriented framework characteristic of Jack Kirby's work: Darkseid as the void, the empty black singularity from which not even light can escape. The darkness that pervades the entire universe, exists deep within us all (again, 'cept Superman) and will inevitably control us. The dreaded finality of existence - symbolized by Darkseid's Omega-themed armaments - which utterly transcends interpretation or definition. The single best description of Darkseid comes from his own mouth in JLA: Rock of Ages --
Kirby wasn't the first to understand that superheroes and villains function best as symbols, but he was the first to fully take advantage of it. Under his pen their monthly brawls became titanic philosophical debates between opposing ideas, with magic rings and repulsor rays in place of rhetoric. As the God of Evil, Darkseid benefits from this metonymy being literal, the embodiment being explicit in the text itself. Where Galactus is the cosmic indifference of the universe - humanity's predilection toward complacency and social apathy - in Darkseid we have a grandly iconic rendering of totalitarian wickedness, one of truly mythic proportions. The conflict against him is the ol' battle of "good" versus "evil" on a Biblical scale --who would want it any other way?
And that's the big difference between DC and Marvel, isn't it? It's often said that Marvel heroes have historically been the more fully-realized in terms of character. They're people with distinct, relatable personalities, everymen burdened with "real-life" problems and baggage. They live in New York, not in fictional cities like Gotham or Metropolis. No matter how cosmic, mystic or esoterically cross-dimensional the stories get, they always seem - or at least strive - to take place in "the real world" because we can so closely identify with the characters. The idea was revolutionary when Marvel first introduced it in the 60s, and much of the company's success to this day should be attributed to this innovation.
DC Comics has grown to take another approach in its publications, one that understanding Darkseid and his role within them enables us to define. Whereas Marvel brings their superheroes down-to-earth, DC raises them up. Their comics approach heroes and villains primarily as archetypes, representations of something greater, more heightened than the everyman. They are symbols, and their own symbols take on great iconographic importance within the stories themselves. Of course we're supposed to identify with the characters, but beyond that we're supposed to be inspired by them and aspire to be like them. As always, writers will often subvert the standard - a la the post-Killing Joke Batman of the 90s - but these interpretations are effective precisely because the standard is so ingrained in fundamental mythos of the DCU.
DC's editorial seems acutely aware that their characters are icons in a way that most Marvel characters aren't, and their comics much more consciously attempt to replicate the structure and qualities of myths. So it makes sense that the thematic fabric holding the DCU together is the archetypal conflict between good and evil, which finds its origins in classical mythology and, later, the foundational Judeo-Christian literature. In other words, where Marvel is all about morality against amorality, DC stories deal with morality against immorality. It's Beowulf vs. the Dragon with these guys. Advancement against destruction. Compassion against malice. Democracy against fascism. Freedom against slavery.
What's so funny about truth, justice and the American way?
Especially if it saves you from this guy?
In the last stand of sentient beings in the universe two young bloggers took up their last fortification in THE JUNCTION TO NOWHERE.
Showing posts with label DC Comics. Show all posts
Showing posts with label DC Comics. Show all posts
Tuesday, April 3, 2012
Tuesday, September 6, 2011
DC New 52 and YOU!
prooker: Welcome to DC 52 and YOU! mommy_made_of nails and I will be discussing all the nooks and crannies of DC's new 52 and I'm making my triumphant return to this here ol' blog.
mommy_made_of_nails: Woo yeah!
So let's see, right now the only title taking place in the rebooted DCNU is Justice League #1, right? This Wednesday we'll get a fresh batch of stories from the new 52 (like Morrison's Supes!), but for now we really don't know too much of the reboot/relaunch's ramifications yet (also bonus points for alliteration).
prooker pointed out something real interesting about a connection between the old DCU and the DCNU in Flashpoint #5. Take it away!
prooker: Spoilers Beware! The big twofer splash page of Flashpont #5 had a mysterious lady that (to the best of my knowledge) is a completely new character.
mommy_made_of_nails: She's sort of like a cosmic Madame Web, telling the Flash as he reshapes reality that a new 'Verse is being made with slight variations.
prooker: She makes her big deus-ex-machina turning the old DCU into the new by fusing together the 3 former imprints of DC's line: Vertigo, Wildstorm, and the DCU while also inexplicably placing Grifter right next to Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman.
mommy_made_of_nails: And cyborg as a leading man in the Justice League.
prooker: It's a very strange move by DC to specifically make an old strand of the old universe to be continued into the new. It's really counter-intuitive. Isn't their goal to create a new universe? Why drag this new deadweight along with it?
mommy_made_of_nails: I imagine it's for 2 reasons.
1) It's a convenient - kind of cheap, but this kind of thing always is - way out if this if the whole reboot falls flat, a holdover that would allow the writers to restore the DCU to it's old state if things just don't work out.
And more importantly 2) it's a way for the writers to impose a stricter regard for continuity on themselves, because historically that's been a big problem over at DC. As prooker pointed out to me, this space lady appears in the background of Justice League #1, at a high school football game featuring a pre-Cyborg Cyborg as star quarterback
prooker: It would be really great if she was just a really huge high-school football fan.
mommy_made_of_nails: Wouldn't it though?
Having her appear in some function - most likely as a kind of behind-the-scenes seer/prophet - in each of these new titles may help establish interconnectivity and structure to the DCNU, which to us (and probably the writers) is a wild, uncharted territory. OR it could just be really imposing and off-putting.
prooker: Yeah, she's also in a few other previews I've seen (Animal Man for one).
mommy_made_of_nails: Maybe she's Grant Morrison.
prooker: Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
I'm not gonna lie I think that part of it, inserting her into every 52 #1 is pretty cool. Has anything been so unitive among so many titles before?
mommy_made_of_nails: I doubt it, maybe for a crossover event but never in something actually important.
prooker: That was a sick backhand burn.
mommy_made_of_nails: They better get some ointment for that burn, son.
prooker: But yeah, I know they're just gonna end up resolving her mysterious appearance in the next event title, but wouldn't it be really cool if she just stayed in the backgrounds of every DC comic for years to come?
Just a voyeuristic spectre (is he still in the DCU?) that really likes comics, JUST LIKE US. Even the bad ones.
mommy_made_of_nails: Oh man I never thought of it like that, though. She'd be like Bat-Mite from Brave and the Bold.
prooker: OH SNAP, BREAK TIME.
10 MINUTES.
ADVENTURE TIME IS ON.
mommy_made_of_nails: GODDAMN IT I HAVE NO TV.
prooker: Gender bending episodeee! Cake the cat and Fionna the human!
mommy_made_of_nails: #greenwithenvy.
This is going in the post, right?
prooker: Totes.
*10-15 minutes later*
Ok back, that was a great episode. Highlights include: Neil Patrick Harris as Prince Gumball and Fionna wearing Sailer Moon's Dress.
AND LORD MONOCHROMICORN.
Seriously f DC wanted to totally sell me on the new 52 they should really release an Adventure Time Comics #1
mommy_made_of_nails: GAAAAH. I want it. Both the episode and the comic.
prooker: Away from cartoons and back to comics though. So since we only have one issue of the new DCU out, what did you think of the Justice League?
mommy_made_of_nails: It had some nice moments, the buddy cop dynamic between Green Lantern and Batman was nice, but honestly it seemed pretty inconsequential. It didn't feel like what the flagship of the DCNU should be.
It lacked gravitas, y'know?
prooker: Yeah if their mission was to be big and bold and different they completely miffed on that one. I can see a small amount of new readers wanting to read this after the first issue, specifically those who saw the GL, Batman, and Supes movies though. But honestly it's also a problem of the monthly serial format, with not every writer being capable to fit what feels like a full story into 20-30 something pages.
mommy_made_of_nails: It doesn't take a master craftsmen to make a big, exciting story under those parameters though.
I was gonna use Mark Waid's Daredevil #1 as an example of something feeling new and fresh but I remembered that Waid is a master craftsman. You get the idea though.
prooker: Well anyways that's one of the big problems with being a newcomer to comics, in an industry that relies on creative talent over marketing. Wait did i just say that ahahaha.
mommy_made_of_nails: HAHAHA, because that's not what the DCNU is at all.
I do like the prospect of this mysterious lady bringing the ol' fashioned omniscient narrator back to comics. The internal monologue caption box is criminally overused. But I didn't see that in Justice League #1. It was same-old-same-old in every respect.
prooker: What I did like from JL #1 was the overall lighthearted tone. Geoff Johns does not shy away from gore in his work, and his biggest success Green Lantern is based on the premise of a huge, dark, operatic cop gun battles.
IN SPACE.
So it's good to see that he is taking a conscious shift from that, and also his obsession with continuity which he just can't mine from anymore.
mommy_made_of_nails: Yeah it'll be interesting to see what Johns does now that he can't fall back on the obscure continuity references that have defined his comics, it's uncharted land for reader and writer alike.
Something that has surprised me for a while now is how hush-hush the DC editorial has been about the ramifications of the reboot. Like what exactly is changed? I thought initially that they were just maintaining a secret well, but now we're officially in the new 52 and we still really don't know what's different
prooker: Sure we do, Superman has no underwear.
mommy_made_of_nails: I wonder if that's true under his costume too...
prooker: That's the Superman for this new generation. But i think they've said a lot about whats new and different in the DCU.
mommy_made_of_nails: Fill me in! I don't know these things.
prooker: It's not a total reboot because some elements do stay the same. Batman and Green Lantern being the biggest ones to stay almost completely untouched. But other than those notable two it's almost a complete scratch really.
Also Barbara Gordon got her legs back.
mommy_made_of_nails: How Barbara Got Her Legs Back.
But the editorial said that many previous stories are still in continuity - one of them being The Killing Joke. How is that reconciled?
prooker: That's whats been hush-hush, but I'm sure the new #1's will fill us in soon enough
mommy_made_of_nails: Honestly the impression I get is almost that they themselves don't know, that they're making it up as they go along. Which can definitely be a bad thing, leading to the same kinds of continuity messes that partially necessitated this event. But it can also be a good thing, leading to a looser, more interesting mode of storytelling than we've seen in comics for at least two decades. And I'm sure just as Post-Crisis gradually reincorporated the erased Silver Age elements, so too will the DCNU bring back stories theoretically booted from the current canon.
prooker: I don't know if you're giving them enough credit on this, the way I hear these new stories that were picked were specific pitches from writers about stories they really wanted to tell.
mommy_made_of_nails:
Writers like JT Krul.
prooker:
Yes.
I'm sure they've at least got a certain foresight for at least a year.
mommy_made_of_nails: One would hope so. I can see this reboot lasting for a long time, perhaps as long as the first Crisis and now. Certain things will change - I'm betting that within 2 years all the major players (read: Supes) will be back to their iconic costumes - but this could have staying power if the fanboys are down. With all the negative internet feedback, one has to wonder, though. Will they be? And will that be enough? Because DC editorial's goal of attracting new readers will definitely not be met. Not with this as a business model.
prooker: It's really disheartening to see so much pessimism about all this though. Wouldn't it be awesome if this all just turned out all right?
mommy_made_of_nails: I'm not so much pessimistic about the content, my only complaints so far are the shitty Jim Lee costumes. And Grifter. Hell Cyborg on the Justice League could be pretty cool. My beef is with what this reboot was really about, the whole readership is dying thing. If this is the best they can do than superhero comics are fucked. I mean of course not really, Warner Bros and Disney will keep them afloat for the intellectual property, but don't you wish the industry could actually sustain itself? And let's pray to god Superhero movies don't eventually go the way of the Western, because then WB and Disney might actually consider letting them go under when the publishers can't pull their weight.
prooker: I think we're drifting off into another larger and broader conflict that could take hundreds of pages to really get into, even if it is extremely relevant to this new initiative.
mommy_made_of_nails: THE AVENGERS INITIATIVE.
Sorry I had to.
prooker: That's ok, I'll just pretend Samuel L. Jackson found his way into our discussion.
mommy_made_of_nails: In a perfect world, in a perfect world.
PROOKER YOU THINK YOU'RE THE ONLY SUPER-HERO
prooker: So let's leave it be and say we'll see. I honestly hope all 52 books kick so much ass.
mommy_made_of_nails: Me too. Except Grifter. Fuck that noise.
prooker: I would write a Grifter ongoing.
mommy_made_of_nails: Also, Static Shock should have his own comic. With his old costume. Written by Spike Lee.
prooker: I may hate Spike Lee more than Grifter.
mommy_made_of_nails: Grifter written by Spike Lee.
prooker: The Perfect Storm.
Alright to wrap this thing up, which books in the new 52 are you gonna be picking up?
mommy_made_of_nails: I'm looking forward to Animal Man, Action Comics, Wonder Woman, Batwoman, ummm...
I need a list...
prooker: Hawk and Dove.
mommy_made_of_nails: LIEFELD ALL DAY ERRYDAY.
I was thinking Milligan's Red Lanterns but after Secret Seven I'm not sure.
prooker: The thing about Milligan is he's extremely hit and miss in his mainstream work.
mommy_made_of_nails: Umm what else is there? What are you looking forward to?
prooker: Well my pull list for this coming month are:
Animal Man written by Jeff Lemire and Travel Foreman which is looking to just be a gorgeous book
Action Comics which you really don't need to say anything more than Grant Morrison writes Superman, but Rags Morales doesn't hurt
Swamp Thing by Scott Snyder and Yanick Paquette
mommy_made_of_nails: Oh I forgot all about that one. Snyder's a real up-and-comer.
prooker: Yeah his run on detective comics will be one of those books in bookstores that just everyone will sit down and read all the way through.
mommy_made_of_nails: Need dat trade.
prooker: And Paquette's work on batman Inc was rad.
Batwoman by J.H. Williams and Amy Reeder, which really has nothing to do with the reboot
Oh Batman as well also written by Snyder and drawn by Greg Capullo, one of those Image guys, but his work as of late looks pretty great.
mommy_made_of_nails: Oh man! I'm gonna be so broke.
prooker: Yeah! who said the new 52 didn't do it's job? I'm already getting more comics than I used to.
mommy_made_of_nails: Neckbeards.
prooker: Also I might - MIGHT - pick up Hawk and Dove.
mommy_made_of_nails: Too much Matt Seneca trying to convince you Liefeld is good.
prooker: ahahaha no way man, I hate seneca most of the time. He can be such a douchebag. He fucking smoked an issue of the new Punisher comic. That is so dumb.
mommy_made_of_nails: Hahaha that's dangerous. Silly Matt.
prooker: Anyways what's on your "Stay away, FAR AWAY" list, also known as the "Burn it with Fire" list.
mommy_made_of_nails: GRIFTER.
TEEN TITANS.
The Krul stuff.
prooker: Watch all those things become DC's flagship properties for the next century.
mommy_made_of_nails: Wait Johns isn't doing Flash anymore is he?
prooker: Nope Manapul is on it with both art duties and writing.
mommy_made_of_nails: I could get into that.
prooker: So I'll check it out because i DESPERATELY want to like a Flash comic.
mommy_made_of_nails: Ummm what other comics are there? I'm kind of ignorant...
Superboy. Don't like the art.
prooker: What?? R.B. Silva is on it! The guy who did the brilliant Jimmy Olsen backups in Action Comics
mommy_made_of_nails: Don't like the cover.
OH DUDE. DUDE. WE FORGOT FRANKENSTEIN. That looks awesome.
prooker: Frankenstein leads an elite taskforce of monsters. SOLD.
Jeff Lemire doesn't hurt either.
mommy_made_of_nails: Exactly.
prooker: Ok just to add, I just saw some preview pages of Justice League International. And apparently the whole 80's JLI is TOTALLY REBOOTED.
NO BLUE AND GOLD BOOSTER AND BEETLE
NO MARTIANS LOVING OREOS
NO BWAHAHAHAHA
NO ONE MORE PUNCH
mommy_made_of_nails: I'm so sorry, prooker. So so sorry.
prooker: While I cry into my pillow, I think this is a good point to end at. I really hope that these new comics will be absolutely phenomenal and I wish all the creators the best of luck.
Especially you Mr. Liefeld.
mommy_made_of_nails: I'm looking forward to more DC Comics than I have in a long time.
Except Grifter.
mommy_made_of_nails: Woo yeah!
So let's see, right now the only title taking place in the rebooted DCNU is Justice League #1, right? This Wednesday we'll get a fresh batch of stories from the new 52 (like Morrison's Supes!), but for now we really don't know too much of the reboot/relaunch's ramifications yet (also bonus points for alliteration).
prooker pointed out something real interesting about a connection between the old DCU and the DCNU in Flashpoint #5. Take it away!
prooker: Spoilers Beware! The big twofer splash page of Flashpont #5 had a mysterious lady that (to the best of my knowledge) is a completely new character.
mommy_made_of_nails: She's sort of like a cosmic Madame Web, telling the Flash as he reshapes reality that a new 'Verse is being made with slight variations.
prooker: She makes her big deus-ex-machina turning the old DCU into the new by fusing together the 3 former imprints of DC's line: Vertigo, Wildstorm, and the DCU while also inexplicably placing Grifter right next to Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman.
mommy_made_of_nails: And cyborg as a leading man in the Justice League.
prooker: It's a very strange move by DC to specifically make an old strand of the old universe to be continued into the new. It's really counter-intuitive. Isn't their goal to create a new universe? Why drag this new deadweight along with it?
mommy_made_of_nails: I imagine it's for 2 reasons.
1) It's a convenient - kind of cheap, but this kind of thing always is - way out if this if the whole reboot falls flat, a holdover that would allow the writers to restore the DCU to it's old state if things just don't work out.
And more importantly 2) it's a way for the writers to impose a stricter regard for continuity on themselves, because historically that's been a big problem over at DC. As prooker pointed out to me, this space lady appears in the background of Justice League #1, at a high school football game featuring a pre-Cyborg Cyborg as star quarterback
prooker: It would be really great if she was just a really huge high-school football fan.
mommy_made_of_nails: Wouldn't it though?
Having her appear in some function - most likely as a kind of behind-the-scenes seer/prophet - in each of these new titles may help establish interconnectivity and structure to the DCNU, which to us (and probably the writers) is a wild, uncharted territory. OR it could just be really imposing and off-putting.
prooker: Yeah, she's also in a few other previews I've seen (Animal Man for one).
mommy_made_of_nails: Maybe she's Grant Morrison.
prooker: Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
I'm not gonna lie I think that part of it, inserting her into every 52 #1 is pretty cool. Has anything been so unitive among so many titles before?
mommy_made_of_nails: I doubt it, maybe for a crossover event but never in something actually important.
prooker: That was a sick backhand burn.
mommy_made_of_nails: They better get some ointment for that burn, son.
prooker: But yeah, I know they're just gonna end up resolving her mysterious appearance in the next event title, but wouldn't it be really cool if she just stayed in the backgrounds of every DC comic for years to come?
Just a voyeuristic spectre (is he still in the DCU?) that really likes comics, JUST LIKE US. Even the bad ones.
mommy_made_of_nails: Oh man I never thought of it like that, though. She'd be like Bat-Mite from Brave and the Bold.
prooker: OH SNAP, BREAK TIME.
10 MINUTES.
ADVENTURE TIME IS ON.
mommy_made_of_nails: GODDAMN IT I HAVE NO TV.
prooker: Gender bending episodeee! Cake the cat and Fionna the human!
mommy_made_of_nails: #greenwithenvy.
This is going in the post, right?
prooker: Totes.
*10-15 minutes later*
Ok back, that was a great episode. Highlights include: Neil Patrick Harris as Prince Gumball and Fionna wearing Sailer Moon's Dress.
AND LORD MONOCHROMICORN.
Seriously f DC wanted to totally sell me on the new 52 they should really release an Adventure Time Comics #1
mommy_made_of_nails: GAAAAH. I want it. Both the episode and the comic.
prooker: Away from cartoons and back to comics though. So since we only have one issue of the new DCU out, what did you think of the Justice League?
mommy_made_of_nails: It had some nice moments, the buddy cop dynamic between Green Lantern and Batman was nice, but honestly it seemed pretty inconsequential. It didn't feel like what the flagship of the DCNU should be.
It lacked gravitas, y'know?
prooker: Yeah if their mission was to be big and bold and different they completely miffed on that one. I can see a small amount of new readers wanting to read this after the first issue, specifically those who saw the GL, Batman, and Supes movies though. But honestly it's also a problem of the monthly serial format, with not every writer being capable to fit what feels like a full story into 20-30 something pages.
mommy_made_of_nails: It doesn't take a master craftsmen to make a big, exciting story under those parameters though.
I was gonna use Mark Waid's Daredevil #1 as an example of something feeling new and fresh but I remembered that Waid is a master craftsman. You get the idea though.
prooker: Well anyways that's one of the big problems with being a newcomer to comics, in an industry that relies on creative talent over marketing. Wait did i just say that ahahaha.
mommy_made_of_nails: HAHAHA, because that's not what the DCNU is at all.
I do like the prospect of this mysterious lady bringing the ol' fashioned omniscient narrator back to comics. The internal monologue caption box is criminally overused. But I didn't see that in Justice League #1. It was same-old-same-old in every respect.
prooker: What I did like from JL #1 was the overall lighthearted tone. Geoff Johns does not shy away from gore in his work, and his biggest success Green Lantern is based on the premise of a huge, dark, operatic cop gun battles.
IN SPACE.
So it's good to see that he is taking a conscious shift from that, and also his obsession with continuity which he just can't mine from anymore.
mommy_made_of_nails: Yeah it'll be interesting to see what Johns does now that he can't fall back on the obscure continuity references that have defined his comics, it's uncharted land for reader and writer alike.
Something that has surprised me for a while now is how hush-hush the DC editorial has been about the ramifications of the reboot. Like what exactly is changed? I thought initially that they were just maintaining a secret well, but now we're officially in the new 52 and we still really don't know what's different
prooker: Sure we do, Superman has no underwear.
mommy_made_of_nails: I wonder if that's true under his costume too...
prooker: That's the Superman for this new generation. But i think they've said a lot about whats new and different in the DCU.
mommy_made_of_nails: Fill me in! I don't know these things.
prooker: It's not a total reboot because some elements do stay the same. Batman and Green Lantern being the biggest ones to stay almost completely untouched. But other than those notable two it's almost a complete scratch really.
Also Barbara Gordon got her legs back.
mommy_made_of_nails: How Barbara Got Her Legs Back.
But the editorial said that many previous stories are still in continuity - one of them being The Killing Joke. How is that reconciled?
prooker: That's whats been hush-hush, but I'm sure the new #1's will fill us in soon enough
mommy_made_of_nails: Honestly the impression I get is almost that they themselves don't know, that they're making it up as they go along. Which can definitely be a bad thing, leading to the same kinds of continuity messes that partially necessitated this event. But it can also be a good thing, leading to a looser, more interesting mode of storytelling than we've seen in comics for at least two decades. And I'm sure just as Post-Crisis gradually reincorporated the erased Silver Age elements, so too will the DCNU bring back stories theoretically booted from the current canon.
prooker: I don't know if you're giving them enough credit on this, the way I hear these new stories that were picked were specific pitches from writers about stories they really wanted to tell.
mommy_made_of_nails:
Writers like JT Krul.
prooker:
Yes.
I'm sure they've at least got a certain foresight for at least a year.
mommy_made_of_nails: One would hope so. I can see this reboot lasting for a long time, perhaps as long as the first Crisis and now. Certain things will change - I'm betting that within 2 years all the major players (read: Supes) will be back to their iconic costumes - but this could have staying power if the fanboys are down. With all the negative internet feedback, one has to wonder, though. Will they be? And will that be enough? Because DC editorial's goal of attracting new readers will definitely not be met. Not with this as a business model.
prooker: It's really disheartening to see so much pessimism about all this though. Wouldn't it be awesome if this all just turned out all right?
mommy_made_of_nails: I'm not so much pessimistic about the content, my only complaints so far are the shitty Jim Lee costumes. And Grifter. Hell Cyborg on the Justice League could be pretty cool. My beef is with what this reboot was really about, the whole readership is dying thing. If this is the best they can do than superhero comics are fucked. I mean of course not really, Warner Bros and Disney will keep them afloat for the intellectual property, but don't you wish the industry could actually sustain itself? And let's pray to god Superhero movies don't eventually go the way of the Western, because then WB and Disney might actually consider letting them go under when the publishers can't pull their weight.
prooker: I think we're drifting off into another larger and broader conflict that could take hundreds of pages to really get into, even if it is extremely relevant to this new initiative.
mommy_made_of_nails: THE AVENGERS INITIATIVE.
Sorry I had to.
prooker: That's ok, I'll just pretend Samuel L. Jackson found his way into our discussion.
mommy_made_of_nails: In a perfect world, in a perfect world.
PROOKER YOU THINK YOU'RE THE ONLY SUPER-HERO
prooker: So let's leave it be and say we'll see. I honestly hope all 52 books kick so much ass.
mommy_made_of_nails: Me too. Except Grifter. Fuck that noise.
prooker: I would write a Grifter ongoing.
mommy_made_of_nails: Also, Static Shock should have his own comic. With his old costume. Written by Spike Lee.
prooker: I may hate Spike Lee more than Grifter.
mommy_made_of_nails: Grifter written by Spike Lee.
prooker: The Perfect Storm.
Alright to wrap this thing up, which books in the new 52 are you gonna be picking up?
mommy_made_of_nails: I'm looking forward to Animal Man, Action Comics, Wonder Woman, Batwoman, ummm...
I need a list...
prooker: Hawk and Dove.
mommy_made_of_nails: LIEFELD ALL DAY ERRYDAY.
I was thinking Milligan's Red Lanterns but after Secret Seven I'm not sure.
prooker: The thing about Milligan is he's extremely hit and miss in his mainstream work.
mommy_made_of_nails: Umm what else is there? What are you looking forward to?
prooker: Well my pull list for this coming month are:
Animal Man written by Jeff Lemire and Travel Foreman which is looking to just be a gorgeous book
Action Comics which you really don't need to say anything more than Grant Morrison writes Superman, but Rags Morales doesn't hurt
Swamp Thing by Scott Snyder and Yanick Paquette
mommy_made_of_nails: Oh I forgot all about that one. Snyder's a real up-and-comer.
prooker: Yeah his run on detective comics will be one of those books in bookstores that just everyone will sit down and read all the way through.
mommy_made_of_nails: Need dat trade.
prooker: And Paquette's work on batman Inc was rad.
Batwoman by J.H. Williams and Amy Reeder, which really has nothing to do with the reboot
Oh Batman as well also written by Snyder and drawn by Greg Capullo, one of those Image guys, but his work as of late looks pretty great.
mommy_made_of_nails: Oh man! I'm gonna be so broke.
prooker: Yeah! who said the new 52 didn't do it's job? I'm already getting more comics than I used to.
mommy_made_of_nails: Neckbeards.
prooker: Also I might - MIGHT - pick up Hawk and Dove.
mommy_made_of_nails: Too much Matt Seneca trying to convince you Liefeld is good.
prooker: ahahaha no way man, I hate seneca most of the time. He can be such a douchebag. He fucking smoked an issue of the new Punisher comic. That is so dumb.
mommy_made_of_nails: Hahaha that's dangerous. Silly Matt.
prooker: Anyways what's on your "Stay away, FAR AWAY" list, also known as the "Burn it with Fire" list.
mommy_made_of_nails: GRIFTER.
TEEN TITANS.
The Krul stuff.
prooker: Watch all those things become DC's flagship properties for the next century.
mommy_made_of_nails: Wait Johns isn't doing Flash anymore is he?
prooker: Nope Manapul is on it with both art duties and writing.
mommy_made_of_nails: I could get into that.
prooker: So I'll check it out because i DESPERATELY want to like a Flash comic.
mommy_made_of_nails: Ummm what other comics are there? I'm kind of ignorant...
Superboy. Don't like the art.
prooker: What?? R.B. Silva is on it! The guy who did the brilliant Jimmy Olsen backups in Action Comics
mommy_made_of_nails: Don't like the cover.
OH DUDE. DUDE. WE FORGOT FRANKENSTEIN. That looks awesome.
prooker: Frankenstein leads an elite taskforce of monsters. SOLD.
Jeff Lemire doesn't hurt either.
mommy_made_of_nails: Exactly.
prooker: Ok just to add, I just saw some preview pages of Justice League International. And apparently the whole 80's JLI is TOTALLY REBOOTED.
NO BLUE AND GOLD BOOSTER AND BEETLE
NO MARTIANS LOVING OREOS
NO BWAHAHAHAHA
NO ONE MORE PUNCH
mommy_made_of_nails: I'm so sorry, prooker. So so sorry.
prooker: While I cry into my pillow, I think this is a good point to end at. I really hope that these new comics will be absolutely phenomenal and I wish all the creators the best of luck.
Especially you Mr. Liefeld.
mommy_made_of_nails: I'm looking forward to more DC Comics than I have in a long time.
Except Grifter.
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